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ORH_wxman

China's despotic mass surveillance

41 posts in this topic

Just now, Captain Planet said:

Well get ready for it. As religion slowly erodes due to loss of faith, look for government to step in as the ultimate authority figure. When people no longer fear God, their behaviors will change. The government will step in to provide order and behavioral corrections. 

And this is why I don't believe that atheism is inherently liberating. Something else tends to fill the void.

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Just now, Fozz said:

And this is why I don't believe that atheism is inherently liberating. Something else tends to fill the void.

Life was never liberating to begin with. We are all competing against everyone’s will. Life has been a constant struggle from the beginning. We either learn to accept our behavioral conditionings or fight against it. Authority always finds a medium. Some countries offer more “liberty” than others, but at the end of the day, “liberty” is just a group or an individual telling you want to do. There really is no such thing as pure liberty or freedom. You are either controlled by man, nature, or a God. 

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Posted (edited)

Most Japanese are not religious. They seem to keep a stable country without fear of a diety.

Edit.

I know Shinto is technically a religion, but I think it lacks a central diety.

Edited by Wide Reader

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Just now, Wide Reader said:

Most Japanese are not religious. They seem to keep a stable country without fear of a diety.

Edit.

I know Shinto is technically a religion, but I think it lacks a central diety.

I’m not saying it can’t happen, but people tend to push the behavioral limits when there is nothing to fear other than the states corporal punishment. Most people want cctvs and instant justice anyways. 

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On 5/7/2019 at 8:10 PM, Fozz said:

And this is why I don't believe that atheism is inherently liberating. Something else tends to fill the void.

China's internment camps are not to be something to aspire to- America has a dark history in that regard too.  And mass surveillance- we're truly entering a dystopic era in human history.  Mass surveillance is something no nation should have, the more you try to control people, the more they will rebel- that is basic psychology 101.  

We're entering a combo of 1984 and Brave New World.

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On 5/3/2019 at 10:07 PM, ORH_wxman said:

We've been talking about this at random times in other threads, but this probably deserves its own thread. 

The human rights watch group below apparently was able to reverse engineer the app that the Chinese government uses to collect data on their population (esp the muslims) to increase their ability to oppress them.

Reading some of this stuff makes your stomach turn.

From the human rights watch site:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/05/01/chinas-algorithms-repression/reverse-engineering-xinjiang-police-mass-surveillance

 

 

They've set up internment and re-education camps too

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On 5/4/2019 at 7:18 PM, ORH_wxman said:

It's totalitarian is what it is. They define what "suspicious behavior" is and that includes any political dissent. It's the beginning of Orwell's 1984.

 

an interesting combo of 1984 and Brave New World, Will.  You can see it happening here also.  I have no doubt we will evolve towards a Minority Report type of society where huge amounts of data are collected to predict crime.  We saw the beginnings of it with the Patriot Act- they even collect data on reading material from libraries and internet providers.

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On 5/7/2019 at 4:02 PM, Captain Planet said:

People behave like animals, maybe if they wanted to grow up and behave like evolved people, I wouldn’t be for it. Anybody who carves their graffiti into a bathroom stall gets what they deserve. 

err animals behave a lot better than humans do (well humans are animals)- animals dont wage war based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc.  But I dont support mass surveillance because of basic human psychology, the more you try to control people the more they rebel.  Also, the people who are trying to control others likely need to be controlled themselves.

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On 5/7/2019 at 5:40 PM, ORH_wxman said:

This is one of the few aspects of Trump I've been pretty happy with....we've been coddling them for way too long. It was a huge mistake for Clinton (and then GWB late in the game) to hold their hand into the WTO back in 2000-2001.

Trump has been a bit reckless in implementing the tariffs, but the overall idea and attitude is correct. China is one of the top enemies of the U.S. and are a far bigger threat to us than a decaying country like Russia.

I do want the US to get their EV policy in gear, China is far ahead of us in that regard.

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Just now, LibertyBell said:

an interesting combo of 1984 and Brave New World, Will.  You can see it happening here also.  I have no doubt we will evolve towards a Minority Report type of society where huge amounts of data are collected to predict crime.  We saw the beginnings of it with the Patriot Act- they even collect data on reading material from libraries and internet providers.

We've been on a slow descent toward the idea that thought will become a crime...to go toward your minority report reference. I don't think we reach that point but some of the illiberal speech codes and such that we see on college campuses are becoming a bit concerning. 

I do feel some of that is overblown as it tends to be a small vocal minority...but in a few cases, faculty were adversely and materially affected because of spineless administrations. 

The bigger threat is definitely legislation that allows our privacy to be invaded. We've talked a lot about the patriot act but even the lesser known stuff like civil asset forfeiture. 

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I hope kush realizes that China isn’t really a communist state anymore (in spite of the dominant party)... it is a fascist state. The modern Chinese state is primarily committed to the well being of the Han race and is willing to use totalitarian brutality to root out anything that may challenge the state’s dominant ideology. Economically they are not very ideological.... they utilize aspects of capitalism when they see the benefit, but still have a great deal of state planning.

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Just now, Fozz said:

I hope kush realizes that China isn’t really a communist state anymore (in spite of the dominant party)... it is a fascist state. The modern Chinese state is primarily committed to the well being of the Han race and is willing to use totalitarian brutality to root out anything that may challenge the state’s dominant ideology. Economically they are not very ideological.... they utilize aspects of capitalism when they see the benefit, but still have a great deal of state planning.

The Han race is actually the most populous race in the world, the white race is part of the minority. Everyone hates the white race, but yet those same people love to come to countries that are primarily ruled by the white race because they are actually more tolerant. Funny how that works. 

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8 hours ago, Fozz said:

I hope kush realizes that China isn’t really a communist state anymore (in spite of the dominant party)... it is a fascist state. The modern Chinese state is primarily committed to the well being of the Han race and is willing to use totalitarian brutality to root out anything that may challenge the state’s dominant ideology. Economically they are not very ideological.... they utilize aspects of capitalism when they see the benefit, but still have a great deal of state planning.

Yeah, China def doesn't embrace full-on communist/socialist economics anymore....those were during the Mao days of mass starvation....they have a partial market economy heavily influenced by the state now. The politics remain communist though...the authoritarian/totalitarian behavior that is necessary in one party states.

The real economic communism/socialism really only exists in North Korea and Cuba these days and even Cuba is slightly more open to free enterprise than it used to be on a smaller scale, which coincided with some improvement in their standard of living since the starvation days of the 1990s. Laos and Vietnam are kind of like China in that they have partial market economies but communist politics.

 

You still have some disastrous socialist policies in mixed economies though...like Venezuela socializing the industries with the largest sources of income.  Or Greece with their obscenely generous welfare state that was doomed to become underfunded and disincentivizing work.

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18 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

We've been on a slow descent toward the idea that thought will become a crime...to go toward your minority report reference. I don't think we reach that point but some of the illiberal speech codes and such that we see on college campuses are becoming a bit concerning. 

I do feel some of that is overblown as it tends to be a small vocal minority...but in a few cases, faculty were adversely and materially affected because of spineless administrations. 

The bigger threat is definitely legislation that allows our privacy to be invaded. We've talked a lot about the patriot act but even the lesser known stuff like civil asset forfeiture. 

Yes and civil asset forfeiture is even being used in states like Louisiana to seize land from landowners to build pipelines!  So the land is going to these companies, which is a new twist on it.

I dont think we will go all the way down the slippery slope either, but China is a good cautionary tale about what can happen.  We're lucky to have be here, even with all the problems America has, I'm not sure how the people in China who want democracy will attain it (and there are many who do want it but are afraid to speak out- remember what happened at Tianamen Square- the Chinese were electrifying metal grates across which student protesters walked!)

We talk about mass surveillance problems in America and the UK because we know that the slippery slope eventually leads to a system more like what China has, and hopefully, by being aware and speaking up while we still have the freedom to do so, will help us avoid that outcome.  I dont know if you watched this movie, but one of my favorite movies of all time was V FOR VENDETTA.  It depicted how the UK could be under that kind of government and what kind of sacrifices people had to make.  The government depicted in that amazing movie really reminds me of the current situation in China, and being cognizant of that, we must do everything we can to preserve our civil liberties.

In America we have a system of checks and balances and if that fails, people can always go the lawsuit route.  Did you know that a couple just won a $2 billion lawsuit because they simultaneously got cancer from Round Up?  They've been farming for 30 years and used it and the fact that they both got the same form of cancer (Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma) cant be a coincidence (hence the big pay out), so far it's three trials down and Plaintiffs 3 Round Up 0 and there are 14,000 more lawsuits to go.  I bet Bayer is a bit peeved that they bought Monsanto now, no wonder Monsanto wanted to sell, they likely would have gone bankrupt if they hadn't.

If this was China, the government wouldn't have let them sue and would've told them, YOU WILL TAKE YOUR CANCER AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!  I remember that they had this huge dam built which caused a manmade earthquake that killed thousands of people and they didn't bat an eye at that.

 

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14 hours ago, Fozz said:

I hope kush realizes that China isn’t really a communist state anymore (in spite of the dominant party)... it is a fascist state. The modern Chinese state is primarily committed to the well being of the Han race and is willing to use totalitarian brutality to root out anything that may challenge the state’s dominant ideology. Economically they are not very ideological.... they utilize aspects of capitalism when they see the benefit, but still have a great deal of state planning.

I dont like how our administrations have kow towed to China with regards to Taiwan.  Taiwan is an independent nation and should be recognized as such.  They're brave people who decided they wanted to remain free and keep their traditions intact.  I actually went to high school with members of the Sun family- Jennifer Sun (who was a senior when I was a freshman and she was class valedictorian and volunteered heavily in the community) and Michael Sun, who was one year younger than me but he skipped a grade and we were in many of the same accelerated/AP classes.  They told me what was going on in China and the whole situation enraged me.  In college, I went on a trip to Tibet and realized that if we condemn imperialistic behavior that the US does, we must also condemn nations like China for their imperialistic behavior.  You stand up to bullies not kow tow to them- we should have learned our lesson from our interactions with Hitler.

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